(this was one of the writings I alluded to in the Mortal Sins thread)
It doesn't matter where you are in this community, we all "pay to play" and I'm sick of the phrase being used as a means to be a snide ass and downgrade events for any number of excuses.
From the student to the teacher, the vendor to the event producer, we all invest money for our art, there's nothing free about what we do, whether we do it as professionals or hobbyists, for enjoyment, for profit.
A growing number of events *across the world* stipulate that in order to perform at an event, those who actively participate in the event, whether by taking workshops, vending, or volunteering, get first dibs at the performance slots. Why? Because those people are *actively* investing in the event - and not just monetarily. Why is this an issue? Because a LARGE amount of people see the event solely as a opportunity for them to dance. Not to learn something new, or network with others, but as a possible "free" means to showcase their asses on stage. It doesn't matter whether it's a hafla or major festival, there are always those people who show up just in time to dance and then leave as soon as they're done. For a very small percentage, there's a good reason - family commitment, another gig that just showed up, etc....but besides that VERY small percentage, there's no good excuse.
If you're going to spend X amount of dollars to drive to someplace to dance for free, and claim you have lots of other paying gigs you have to attend, so you can't take a workshop or watch anyone else, then perhaps you shouldn't be dancing at the event in the first place. You really want to make a name for yourself in the community? Take an ACTIVE part. Watch other dancers performing. Take a workshop---the best dancers, those who have been dancing for decades, they STILL take workshops...if you think you're too good to take a workshop, especially when you have 10-50 to chose from, then there's no loss in your absence on the stage. If you don't have $30 to spend on a workshop, then you certainly don't have $30 in gas to get there, or $100 to spend on jewelry or pants. Yet, I'm amazed when I see people who harp incessantly about how broke they are, they can't take a workshop, and then I see them uploading big bucks on costuming at the event.
I love the shinies myself, but no amount of shinies can replace knowledge. A single move or a new twist or thought process that can be added to your vocabulary, that improves and enhances your performance will last you much longer than a pair of pants or a pair of earrings.
Last year, I heard from several mouths that they didn't even bother taking the workshop they had signed up for, they just wanted to dance. (In one or two of those instances, the individuals bought a workshop they knew they couldn't attend, in support of that instructor, which is a nice sentiment, and I understand it, but the rest...) I don't even have words for that. Just cringing.
Money is not an excuse if you're an active dancer who wants to perform. Regardless of your budget. There's always something to be done at a festival.
And if you have some sort of concept that event producers are just making money hand over first at events at your expense, that tells me you've never held a real event ever.
A large event venue, depending on where it is costs several thousand dollars to rent for a single whole day. Then there's the lighting...because we know as dancers, we like to be seen on stage, and we want GOOD lighting, not crappy lighting that makes us look sallow and ill. That's several hundred dollars easily. And then there's the sound...you want your music to sound good? So that means at least 2 monitor main speakers and a subwoofer. Oh, you want to hear the music yourself on stage? Add two more monitors for the stage. You really want to hear the bass? Add another subwoofer. Plus the amps, mixer, and cd-players. Easily a 10,000 investment, and most places rent equipment out at 10-20% of the total retail cost, per day. And the guy to run it *who knows what he's doing*.
As a vendor, I have never said, "you should let me in for free, because I'm the reason you make money." So when I hear dancers say that for festivals line-ups, I'd like to enlighten them. As a vendor, I'm there to make money, and I understand that my investment helps pay for the space which provides the venue for the event to take place. No event, no place to vend, no money to make. It's a communal system. We ALL contribute, from the paying attendee to the performer, vendor, teacher, and producer.
Everyone bitches about the Rakkasah call-in. But you want to dance for free and get in for free? That's the system they use to decide who dances. And everyone bitches about the quality of dancing, etc. Did you know that people who sign up for the workshop series get a performance slot and first dibs (besides the teachers)? Most people seem to ignore that fact. Those that invest the time and money get rewarded. Sounds fair to me.
You want a better show? Then the performers are hand-picked by the producer. OR you can increase the chances of better performances by rewarding those who make the investment in the event. There's nothing crooked about it. People who plan on performing months in advance are far more likely to put a lot more effort into their performance.
People who play an active part in an event show that they care, and these are the people who are known in the community. The majority of successful workshop leaders out there, who have been out there, and continue to be successful at it, they understand community. They foster it at home and abroad. Money isn't the bottom line for them. We all appreciate money, and so does the electric and gas companies, and our landlords..but if we were doing it for the money alone, we wouldn't be doing this very long. It's our love of the dance and our commitment to it. It's what drives us to be insane enough to hold events and try to foster community. Cause it ain't the money.
So if you think investing in your dance career is "pay to play", you're right. No matter what the event is, we're all paying in some way to be there - we pay for lessons, costuming, music, etc. All the money we invest, we get something for it - knowledge, adornment, the opportunity to perform and to grow.
If you don't see that in any respect, then I don't think I want to see you dance.
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 8:26 PMWell said and much needed! Thank you. -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 8:44 PMExactly, well said.
Free-loaders are everywhere.
Also, another thing that needs to be addressed is people who run a crappy non-profit event and say "Well, I would have put more time into it if I was paid"
Which is their version of a lazy excuse because they didn't really want to do it. I think if you are going to be in this, be in it. Or get lost.
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 12:38 AMWell said indeed...I've been doing various kinds of bd for two decades, and I'm always amazed at the people who don't seem to think they have anything left to learn! I'm feeling like I just started, there is so much new stuff to learn all the time, and I don't think I've ever attended a workshop where I didn't learn something, regardless of the "level" of the ws or teacher. I don't even want to know how much I've paid over the years, just to get to sweat in a studio for a few hours!
But then, some people just live to complain about anything, and that's sad... -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 10:55 AMGreat article. Part of what I love about workshops is getting to learn new things and meet people and watch performers I wouldn't normally have the opportunity to see. Performing is great, but sometimes learning is a better option. And why would you not want to support the teachers, hosts, vendors and others who work hard to enable us to learn? I've missed a lot of workshops because I was broke, but I'm sure not going to drive 3 hours so I can dance somewhere if I can't enjoy the other festivities as well.
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 11:00 AMThere is a vast spread of attitudes towards learning from others. Kajira attended workshops at Gothla US, and on the other hand I have a dance teacher colleague in Gothenburg who took classes for 2-3 years, and then stopped, and just teaches today.
I think there also is a sense of "if I take HER class I will look inferior to her" in this whole thing.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I never want to stop learning and getting inspired by others. I even feel I'm learning from my students in the beginners' classes sometimes. I read once, that "Who stops getting better, also soon will stop being good." (or something like that, it was in Swedish...).
Well spoken (written) again, Tempest. We all should support the community and give eachother some cred, even if we at the end of it all compete for the same dance gigs and teaching jobs. We don't have to bitch around to show we are good dancers and teachers. A bit of humbleness never hurt anyone. -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 4:47 AMYou said... I think there also is a sense of "if I take HER class I will look inferior to her" in this whole thing.
I hate that attitude. I went to Northern Migration last year, and got to take classes with UNMATA, Sashi, Zafira Dance Company, Frederique, Gypsy Caravan, and Kassar among others. Imagine my excitement to see so many of the teachers in the classes with me!!! I think that part of what makes great dancers into greater dancers, and great teachers into greater teachers, is to NEVER STOP LEARNING.
Hence why Sashi, Amy and Luna of UNMATA, and Olivia and Maria of Zafira have joined some of my favorite luminaries as true inspiriations :)
Tempest, thank you for sharing this with all of us, and giving us a place to talk about it! -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 8:07 AMWell said Tempest! The more workshops I go to, the more I realise there is to learn.
Re event organisation and vending - it's certainly no doddle, hours are usually from around 9am - midnight with a couple of breaks, if you're lucky, however some folks just see the glitzy glam side.
Let's hope that article gets everyone thinking.
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 6:34 PMArani,
I'm sorry to say that it seems to be a common attitude...
But we all can try set a good example. I'm going to take lots of classes when going to Gothla UK, for instance. I tell my students I take classes, anf encourage them to take workshops and try other teachers too. A variety of input creates a variety of output, thus the dance evolves.
Stop learning, thinking one is better than the rest, well, that won't hold for long. It's like a dance community version of Darwinism...
-
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 9:08 AMThe one time I bitched about it (and ultimately did not perform in the show because of it, but I did attend -- what can I say, there weren't a lot of events in that area) was for a workshop showcase/ hafla/ performance after a workshop, where I DID attend both days of workshops and then was being asked to pay a pretty large cover for the hafla regardless of whether I was going to perform or not. So, I choose not to perform, but I did attend the event, with my students, and got drunks and had a blast!
Rakkasah, Tribal Fest etc... those are different. And I can totally understand the need to have performers taking the workshops. As long as I've been dancing (a long time :D) that's been true. But to pay a lot of money for both the workshop AND the hafla you're (maybe) performing in? Seemed too much at the time. -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 11:51 AMI will admit to this: I go to the first class by a teacher, which is usually the free one, and see if I like the teacher. If I feel that I cannot learn from that person, for any number of reasons, I just won't take their full class set.
But having performers attend classes sounds like a good idea. We should all force/herd them towards the nearest teachers!!! ; )
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 12:04 PMJust FYI, giving first dibs on performance slots to workshop attendees and teachers is a different concept than pay-to-play. You're talking about two different things.
Pay-to-play is something that has been around for ages, and was a scandal in radio in the 1950's and has happened in rock clubs and strip joints for years. It happens everywhere, and is a way for club owners and such to make money and for artists to pay through the nose just to get onstage. Which obviously puts the focus on who has more money to get onstage...but I digress.
The concept of pay-to-play is not that those who invest more time and money into an event are rewarded by better performance slots, the concept is that you CAN'T perform if you don't take a workshop. And my issue with it (since I am one of the many that refers to this as pay-to-play) is that many of the larger festivals like Rakassah and Tribal Fest rely on a steady stream of performers as part of the whole point of being there. People go to perform, and they go to watch others. The three big reasons for these festivals are workshops, vending, and performing/watching. And I feel that it is insulting to the many performers to travel for hours and spend a ton of money just getting to the festival to also be forced to sign up for a workshop just so they can contribute their art to the audience...when the festival itself would barely exist without those performances.
As for taking workshops...I don't think that in these cases it has ANYthing to do with people's attitudes about learning. When they're literally forced to take one just for the sake of performing...well, don't find it shocking that they're not exactly thrilled. I prefer to actually choose when and where I take a workshop, not be forced into it when all I was doing in the first place was trying to contribute to the community. I take plenty of workshops and will continue to do so...but not when I'm forced to. Choice is nice, isn't it?
I feel that telling people to essentially suck it up when it comes to the expenses of dancing is just a bit simplistic. Yes, it takes money to do this...I rehearse/take class/teach class at least four nights a week and each one has its price in time, money, or both. But the pay-to-play issue is about far more than that. It's about discussing what it means to contribute to a community-oriented event. It's about deciding how much our art is worth, and event planners making it even harder for people to contribute that art. It's about being true to the meaning of community. It's about being forced to do something you wouldn't otherwise do (at what, at least $30 a pop) just so you can contribute to your community? Hmmm...
And as for event planners "needing" to make these stipulations in order to make their money back, I have two words for you: Tribal Throwdown. This event was a major success last year, and not only did performers not have to do anything but show up and dance as their contribution, it didn't even cost folks to get in the door. And the vendors made out like bandits...and the workshops (with some of the biggest names in the biz) were full. So...
I will also refer to last year's thread regarding pay-to-play, if anyone interested. It's part of what convinced Tribal Fest to lower their workshop requirements for troupes last year...
tribalbellydance.tribe.net/thre...c4ef8
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 1:34 PMI'll touch base on a couple of these
And let's talk apples and oranges here,, Tribal Fest is 5 days,,,, Tribal Throwdown was 2 days?
Tribal Throw Down last year was on Rakkasha week-end so it had a "built-in" fan base.
Tribal Fest last year had 30 something teachers and over 24 hours of performances... last year we had over 1100 dancers on-stage who get in free the day they perform BTW.
Tribal Throwdown producers "picked" who was going to perform.
I am not picking on Throwdown BTW..Brad is a great guy and talked to us before he even announced it to make sure that we as producers didn't have a problem with him putting on an event so close to ours. I am just pointing out some differences since you brought up Throwdown.
Every year at Tribal Fest we have lots of people who can not get a performance spot, there simply is not enought time. You don't know how hard Kajira takes this, how sad it makes her and how much she agonizes over it.
It is why every year we expand our show times to allow more and more people the oppertunity to perform. This year I think we are at 26 hours.... 2 more hours than last year. More dancers getting the chance to perform.
That is not even counting the Saturday night Fire Show time that starts after we end.
And as far as changing the requirements for performing, we call it adjusting it after listening to input from the BD community as a whole.
Do some research into the cost of a big event.
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 3:40 PMI appreciate the info, Chuck. I'm just pointing out that there are other ways to do things other than charging the performers, which is essentially what your requirement does. Rakassah, for example, is bigger than TF and still does not *require* performers to take a workshop. First dibs, yes. Requirement, no. The difference there is huge.
And I just wanted to add that it has nothing to do with whether someone *wants* to take one or not...Tempest's point about people thinking they're too good for workshops is just a red herring. There ARE people who think they're too good for workshops, but that isn't the issue here and makes it look like anyone who is not pro-pay-to-play (read: me) is lazy and not a good dancer. Which is quite a blanket statement to make, and an unfair one. I am not the absolute best dancer in the world, but I'm sure as hell not lazy.
And Chuck, I know you and Kajira work very hard, and this community is better for having TF around. I had my very first public performance at TF, so it will always have special place in my heart. I just take issue with this one liiiitle thing... -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 4:05 PMMy issue is the people who cry "it's pay to play!" to cover their personal issues/excuses rather than looking at whole picture and being active in other ways that are more productive. If you don't like how an event is set up, then simply chose not to participate and don't bitch about it in places that don't won't bring about any sort of change - it doesn't promote awareness about an issue - it looks more like sour grapes and is more likely to spread misinformation then promote positive change. In one of the most recent instances that I saw, the person making a big deal was incorrect on several accounts and didn't even bother to read the material regarding the issue in the first place.
If someone has an insight to offer, they should offer it directly to those who can/could make changes. If someone wants to participate, but have valid issues/reasons why the event's system won't work, then it never hurts to contact those in charge and see what can be done. That's why events evolve and change, in response to the community's needs. That's why new events are created...and some old ones die. And vice versa.
And if you read the TF8 FAQ about performing, you'll see that TF does not require folks to sign up for workshops, but those who do, DO get "first dibs". And obviously the attention to each performer and their placement is considered a great deal by Kajira. There's a lot more personal involvement in how TF is run, and it continues to evolve as critical feedback is given on all fronts.
and
Red herring? No. Not in the least. No diversions here from me. Simply a look at the some of symptoms and excuses concerning the larger issue of community involvement and professionalism. If you wish to take it personally and interpret it that way, that's your choice. From my experience across this country partaking in many events large and small, and the other countries I have traveled to, and conversations with dozens of event promoters, there is definitely a common thread for the majority of the behavior described in my initial post. We ALL know that logically that not everyone fits a stereotype, that is obvious. As is the fact that when you cite a general example, it will match a large percentage within a given example, but not all. -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 4:43 PM<it doesn't promote awareness about an issue - it looks more like sour grapes and is more likely to spread misinformation then promote positive change.>
So...if I see something in our community that I think is not ok, I shouldn't put it up for discussion? I don't think so. If I don't like how an event is set up and see a larger, deeper issue going on was sparked by that event's policies, I sure will bring it up for discussion in the community. And considering that my thread last year on TF07's new rules was something like 180 posts long, I think it sparked a pretty great coversation...and it DID make change. AND it promoted a whole lot of awareness, as proven by the many PM's I got on the issue, as well as the responses in the thread.
Keep in mind, I said not a word about TF08. But since you brought it up, the performer guidelines for TF 08 includes the following:
<The minimum number of classes required to secure a performance spot are one for at least every other person in your group. Soloists, enroll in at least one class. Trios: 2 classes minimum. Any odd-numbered group: opt for more classes like with Trios.>
So actually, yes there is a requirement. Not first dibs. Requirement.
And as for people who go and buy costumes but don't take the workshops--who is anyone to tell anyone else about what to spend their money on? Is buying from an event's vendors NOT supporting the event? Is quality costuming not important? Is it at all possible that the workshops simply didn't interest them? Please. I am sure that I am not the only dancer who takes classes/workshops up the wazoo and likes to spend money on costuming when it's laid it out all pretty like at TF and Rakassah. Please do not judge those who do not spend their money the same way that you do. -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 5:17 PMI believe we both know the difference between healthy debate and bitching.
"who is anyone to tell anyone else about what to spend their money on? " "Please do not judge those who do not spend their money the same way that you do. "
BS. No one is doing that. What I wrote was concerning the people who whine and bitch about how they have no money, how sad they are they can't perform because boohoo, they couldn't afford a workshop, how evil the rules are, producers just want their money...and then are unloading buckets of money on other stuff. Now maybe they hit the lottery between then and the event, it happens. That is OBVIOUSLY not about telling people who to spend their money, but about being someone who "walks the walk and talks the talk."
If I can't afford to take a workshop in advance to secure a dance slot, it's not my place to criticize the producer because of it and whine about it. If I fuck up, if it's my budget issues that ARE the issues, then it's MY issue, not THEIR's, or try to make it out like it's someone else's fault I can't get what I want. Makes sense to me.
By the way, in your cut and paste of the TF08 rules, you missed the following sentences after what you posted:
"
This year I will accept performance applications without class sign-ups, but know that these will go on the Waiting List and will not be added unless there is still room at the last minute. You may not get on the schedule, this would be a gamble.
Priority for Performance will be given to those who sincerely wish to support the event and our Teachers." -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 6:42 PMI'm sorry, but I think I'm missing the problem here. If organizer X says he/she requires this/that from performers (participation in dance classes, money, sexual favors... WHATEVER) it's up to the performer to decide if it's worth it or not. I wouldn't pay just to get no stage. I do however not have a problem with being guraranteed a performance slot only if I take the classes. Perhaps since I always take classes at festivals and consider that a major part of the experience. In my world, I pay for the class, not "pay to play".
If the set of rules of one festival doesn't feel allright, perhaps it's better to wait for an event which suits one better? Or am I simplifying it too much? Can it be that easy? It's like dance gigs you don't want bcause it pays lousy, vote with your feet and just don't go there. It's not a God given right for dancers to perform and be on display everywhere they wish. All conditions can't be matched to everyone's wishes.
I can mention that for my little festival in October here in Gothenburg I will choose the performers personally by reputation and from what I've seen them do. But when the event (hopefully) grows, I'm sure I will consider the same idea of giving first dibs to those who take classes or otherwise contribute to the event.
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 12:34 AMTempest said:
>>>BS. No one is doing that. What I wrote was concerning the people who whine and bitch about how they have no money, how sad they are they can't perform because boohoo, they couldn't afford a workshop, how evil the rules are, producers just want their money...and then are unloading buckets of money on other stuff. Now maybe they hit the lottery between then and the event, it happens. That is OBVIOUSLY not about telling people who to spend their money, but about being someone who "walks the walk and talks the talk."<<<
I guess my issue is less about Tribal Fest's rules and more about the article. This was an 'Article' after all, and not a Blog or a Rant. So, I'm wondering who "They" are and how you know "They" dump loads of money into other stuff, while "They" complain about the cost of a workshop. Who are these people, and where did you find them? I guess, with it being an official article, I'd appreciate an example of Person X who did this- rather than speculation, which just makes people feel picked on for their viewpoint.
If you say, 'I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about these other people', make that clear. Give an example (you don't have to name names). Otherwise it seems like pure speculation about somebody else's motivations, which doesn't make for a fair article, opinion or not.
(I'm not trying to sound like I'm in attack mode, if that's what it seems like- It just struck a nerve in me.)
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 6:38 AMactually Erin, it DID start off as a blog post (which is open to any to read), in response to several different things that gradually irked me like a progressive build up of sand, the final topping was a series of haphazard posts in the BSBD tribe.
Who are these people? Where did I find them? From my travels across the nation, talking with event producers, and students from around the world. I've cited some of the things I've heard/read directly and have been told by the individuals, and I've also noticed that it usually occurs in a repetitive pattern. You hear an excuse once, ok, benefit of the doubt for sure. You hear it 6 times, and something's not right there. I think most often, it comes from folks who never received info on community feedback and interaction from their instructors, and perhaps the instructors never got it as well.
If it makes you happy, consider it an editorial. Which nowadays can be a rant and a blog too, even from the SF Chronicles. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 2:36 PMOk, fair enough- now I understand this was a blog based on the reasons you just mentioned. And I know, we all have to rant sometimes- people can be rude and inappropriate.
I guess with the post entitled Article (or even editorial), your tone came across (to me) as quite antagonistic rather than analytical, which can tend to put the reader on the defensive if they don't completely agree with your point of view. Especially when you write partially in second person, to which the reader responds, "You"= Me.
Thanks for the clarification.
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 9:58 AMIt is a blog, although for some reason the first line from the original is missing from the reposted versions...which was: "I'm buying some people a clue". Not sure why it was removed... -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 10:18 AMI chose not to include it in the copy and paste over. It wasn't necessary. Simple as that.
Besides, I've got a better clue analogy for an upcoming piece, and it's going to cost me 5 cents to Keith to use it. ;)
-
-
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 5:17 PMMaybe I misunderstand the TF08 website, but underneath the following statement:
<The minimum number of classes required to secure a performance spot are one for at least every other person in your group. Soloists, enroll in at least one class. Trios: 2 classes minimum. Any odd-numbered group: opt for more classes like with Trios.>
It does say:
<This year I will accept performance applications without class sign-ups, but know that these will go on the Waiting List and will not be added unless there is still room at the last minute. You may not get on the schedule, this would be a gamble.>
To me this is basically saying that it is not mandatory to take a workshop to perform, however those that are taking workshops will get "first dibs".
It's so odd for me to read the other thread, because locally, for festivals (such as Spirit of the Tribes) and just local workshop shows, it is normal and usually a requirement, to take workshops in order to perform. I'm sure if I lived in a location where this is not the norm, then I would feel differently. Currently I agree with Tempest... I really enjoy seeing the performers in workshops with me. I remember at Spirit last year, Ariellah taught/performed and I saw her in the Bollywood/bhangra workshop. It was really cute seeing her jump around with her striped socks on :-)
-
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 4:30 PMHolly, mahalo for the kind words and we are glad that TF will always hold a special place in your heart... it does for many who have got their start there. I wont list them here, but Kajira is so thankfull for them all who take the time to be at Tribal Fest when they could choose to be other places.
Tempest is right when she says that we do not require people to take classes but they are given "first dibs" just like Rakassah. I know that we have been through this before and to be sure, Tribal Fest was not the first event to start this.
Unfortunately for those who choose not to take classes we run out of space. Even as I said, we just keep adding more performance times.
And so we can agree to disagree on this one liiitle thing... it's all good... :-) -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 4:49 PMSure thing, Chuck. I always appreciate how gracious you are in these things :)
But I have to ask...what does the following mean, if you say you are not requiring dancers to take workshops? From the TF08 Performer Guidelines:
<The minimum number of classes required to secure a performance spot are one for at least every other person in your group. Soloists, enroll in at least one class. Trios: 2 classes minimum. Any odd-numbered group: opt for more classes like with Trios.>
If this actually means first-dibs, then the language is quite confusing..."required to secure a performance spot" says there's a class requirement. Rakassah doesn't say anything like this...I performed there as part of a quartet this year, and none of us were required to take workshops (but boy howdy did the vendors love me! White assuit...purrrr) -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 7:29 PMwow,,, this is fun!!
Thanks for everyone who is keeping a calm head and not getting too personal, I hope to keep that going if this thread continues.....
anyway.... It is cool that everyone reads our site better than me, but let me put it together..
............The minimum number of classes required to secure a performance spot are one for at least every other person in your group. Soloists, enroll in at least one class. Trios: 2 classes minimum. Any odd-numbered group: opt for more classes like with Trios.
This year I will accept performance applications without class sign-ups, but know that these will go on the Waiting List and will not be added unless there is still room at the last minute. You may not get on the schedule, this would be a gamble............
Now forgive me, but what I have HEARD and not looked up, and I hate having to keep brining up Rakassah, mainly because I have to look at someone else's post to spell it, but what I am told is that people who take the week-long classes, get a spot if they want it.... it is not required, but if you do not want to have to go thru the call in deal, there ya go...
I could be wrong, because, I am just going by what I have heard.
Also, I have heard that they have an eariler day for outside the USA for a call in. So that means if you do not take the week-longs, live outside the USA or a teacher, you are not guaranteed a spot.
Throw that into the mix of conversations! LOL ;-)
As far as TF 6 and TF 7 performances go Tempest, hell I can't remember to be honest, after all, I push play for a living. However what I do know, is that in 07 spaces for dance spots filled up faster than erver before and we extended the main hall time.
We tried a second stage and it caused us more hassles than it was worth.
It comes down to this, we, and when I say we, I mean Kajira, (who as you all should know by now, is the one behind the festival 99% good or bad. I give her my undieing support and fingers for typing, but the vision is all hers. Personally I don't think she gets enough credit, but that's just me) tries to put on a festival that she would like to go to. To run it like if she were attending, she would be cool with.
We have a suggestion box. We ask year long for ideas and are open to most ideas thrown at us from the community, and to be honest, I think we are as accessible as an event producers could be.
So open dialog is cool, and mahalo Tempest for as Brad says, allowing this thread which might better be on the Biz Of BellyDance tribe.....
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 1:04 PMwow, It just took the better part of an hour to read all of the posts for this thread. It seems like everything has already been said...multiple ways..over and over. I think this will always be a controversial topic for many people. I know that Kajira goes to great lengths to try and make everyone happy...but as I have told her...it is not possible. I think that this conversation will happen every year....some topics just seem to cycle around. There is no right or wrong. Just people with different options. And you always have a choice!
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 4:55 PMThanks Chuck, I really appreciate your roles in the community as well.
And to clarify, Tribal Throwdown was only one day (Saturday). The Nouveau Nights professional show was two nights (Friday + Saturday). TribalFest is a larger scaled event but I believe the prinicples are the same. Effectively run businesses (such as these events) tend to actually benefit from economies of scale, which allows the operator to spread make-ready costs over a larger supply of product ( even if the base expenses remain the same).
Whether or not we benefiting by competing head-to-head with a major established event last year is a matter of opinion. Many people appreciated the choice; many people were unable to participate in our offering due to the conflict. I don't know if many people skipped the other altogether to attend our alternative but I'd like to think it was at least a possibility.
In just one day (and really more like a half day, compared to TF's much longer hours of operation), we had some 20 top-name teachers offering over 30 hours of instruction plus a lunch-hour Q&A session (hosted by Gibson Pearl) that allowed anyone interested to talk directly to any of the teaching staff (and hear them compare and discuss their own experiences in the dance). We did offer some 10 hours of performances, including the Throwdown dance contest that the event is named for. Like Chuck and Kajira, we tried to get everyone on stage who was generous enough to offer a performance, but when time restrictons did occur, we opted to craft the best show possible for our audience. One of the worst parts about attending too many festivals is suffering through acts that are not ready to be on a prime-time stage. I realize that it's the old chicken and egg... How do you get experience if you can't get the opportunity without experience? But I'm confident that there are plenty of smaller haflas, shows, and other events that allow people on stage, ready or not. We offer the best distilled product we are able.
As for the specific pay-to-play issue being discussed here, Tribal Throwdown appreciates the incredible generosity of performers (many of them professionals who make significant sacrifices to share with their gift with the community at events such as this) and does not make any additional requirement of these people. My partners in the promotion (dancers Meliza Wells and Amy Sigil) and myself all felt this was the right thing to do but we certainly appreciate that there is more than one way to think about such things. In fact, the rousing support of this so-called "pay-to-play" policy received in Tempest's original blog post caught me totally by surprise. There nearly seemed to be outright animosity that someone would insult the community by NOT requiring workshop money for stage time. I'd have never thunk it but there it is.
I've been wrong about this sort of thing before. I'd never have guessed that the same dancers who grouse about the incremental impact of undercutting and the subtlities of professional ethics would fall over themselves to actually pay entry fees to perform (before a paying audience, frequently comprised primarily of their own friends and family) in a professional show... if the word "contest" is attached and someone walks away with a fraction of the entry fees. But they do, so what do I know?
The biz of bellydance (where this discussion might be more appropriate... sorry for the hijack, gothlings) is ultimately a business and the market allows opportunities for many different products, limited only by the creativity of those involved. Based on acceptance, some will succeed and survive, others will be rejected and die or adapt to audience demands. If you as a community want to pay (however roundabout the method) for stage time, enterprising people will line up to offer you that opportunity. Heck, I may be one of them... if that's what you really want. -
-
Re: Article: We all "Pay to Play"
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 6:55 PMOne thing to consider for events that run regularly either quarterly or for several years, is the "fall out" rate comparison between "freebie" events and events that requirement more commitment then just showing up. I've definitely noticed that for the latter, the "no shows" are much fewer, compared to the former. There's ALWAYS going to be someone who can't make it - emergencies, death, and other traumatic things happen unfortunately. But then there's the "I just didn't feel like it" or "we didn't get our shit together" no-shows, which not only affects the producers and their show running smoothly (which I know you experienced some of last year with TTD), but also takes performance slots out of the hands of other people who DID want to be a part of things.
TF6, I noticed SEVERAL no-show's on both days, just on the main stage (I vend inside, so I can't stay about the outside stage), but I didn't notice any at TF7 or heard about any besides an illness related one, perhaps Chuck could offer us some input on whether that was something I perceived or missed. Could it have been the new policy? Other established events attest to it.
On a related note about participation...On boards like bhuz.com and occasionally here on tribe, there's a lot of discussions about haflas, offering opportunities in the local community to dance, and no-shows, and how to keep an event going or should they? Obviously people want an opportunity to dance, but can be rather lackadaisical about attending, and especially in the Bay Area "oh, there will be something else." And then whomever is hosting the hafla decides why should he or she put the effort into it, if folks won't show up as promised, and there goes a dance opp for students and aspiring dancers, a showcase for teachers. Until the next glutton for punishment tries their hand at it. But really, it comes down to people taking free services for granted. Or even paid services if you think about it...whether it's free or not, I think it's essential to teach our students good community etiquette, and appreciate the opportunities as we have them, and not count on them being there.
When I wrote the post above, I was thinking of ALL of these things. Not just TF, but festivals in general all the way down to community events. Out here at the end of NJ (I live off of exit 0 on the Garden State Parkway, you can't get any more south than Cape May), I've had some time to reflect on the 6 years I spent in CA, the 5 years in RI, and what do I have on my hands now in a virtually-untouched, unorganized area. What it means to create community from scratch and what I want to be able to offer my students and visiting professionals and hobbyists. Like for Hipnotique this weekend - the first "bellydance revue" if you will for this area - my workshop students had first dibs on performance slots, but I also recognized the fact that maybe other dancers may be interested in performing, but not a Gothic Bellydance intensive. So Hipnotique was open to ALL styles of bellydance and all levels of dancers, and was free as well to the general public. On a holiday weekend, the venue was PACKED with both the general public and family/friends of the dancers - and for being the "off-season", the venue considered that a miracle, and can only imagine what we're looking at when it comes to the summer. Will the event still be "free"? Nope, we'll have to do a cover charge, and if the event continues to evolve, then I may have to be more selective about the performers ...these are all of things we have to consider and balance out. And this is just a little event, a dot compared to a festival like TF.
-
-
-