When is it okay?

topic posted Tue, April 15, 2008 - 8:04 PM by  Saz'hrah
This isn't so much about gothic bellydance but I admire the honest opinions of gothic bellydancers so this is the best place I thought to post it. I also know of a lot of dancers struggling with the same issues.

Being a dancer and choreographer I have learned to keep myself humble. I always am aware there are those out there that are bigger and better then I am. There will ALWAYS be somebody bigger and better then I am. I love that. It makes me strive to be better. It makes me challenge myself. BUT, I believe my humbleness has become self doubt. I know I have done some great things and that I am a good dancer, not great but i'm alright. I could be better.

I read a lot of other blogs and posts both on Tribe and on myspace. I see dancers congratulating themselves which i think is amazing. And I admire that. Everytime I go to post something about myself and a great thing that happens I stop myself short and remind myself that it may be taken as bragging and remember to stay humble. And after so much of this it has gotten me thinking the past couple of days, "when is it okay to congratulate yourself?"

Is it uncooth to mention a fabulous opportunity? Is it overt bragging when you post it online? When should you keep quiet and stay humble and when is it really alright to pat your own back?

I would love to know others opinions on this.
posted by:
Saz'hrah
El Paso
  • Re: When is it okay?

    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 8:23 PM
    It's alright to pat your own back when you've kicked ass, honey! There's a difference between bragging and writing about a real triumph. You can have confidence in yourself while still realizing that there are those who are better. Just because there are better dancers doesn't mean you don't have your moments, y'know?
  • midnight musings....

    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 8:39 PM
    These are great questions.

    I have the same outlook, and by extension, the same problem, with humility translating itself to self-doubt. (Then my dance partner smacks me in the head and reminds me that no one's perfect, and i should stop being so hard on myself. *Slaps Wrist--Bad Perfectionist*)

    I'm not a big presence online, nor am i a huge presence in the dance community, but when i do speak up, or get out to events--i speak truth, and am sincere in my compliments, constructive criticism, etc. It can also be said that i speak my mind when i feel the need to...but that's another post altogether.

    On the topic of humility, know that you are in the minority. A lot of dancers lack the dna required to form a sincere smile, honest feedback, or to self-critique and grow. There are some of these above mentioned which never grow, because of this, which i find sad and wonder if this is just a flaw one picks up in learning to dance (like sloppy arms) or a flaw of the human being who dances. Humility among dancers is a rare and treasured gift, and is in my mind, a building block of a captivating performer. The true ability to say about oneself "i could have done this better...this timing was off...oop--there goes my belt" and tick a box in the mind to work on these issues should be commended. The sticky bit is to sit and say to oneself " dammit, i'm still stiff on this, that timing is such a pain, why didn't someone tell me my belt was crooked" and feel defeated by the art you are trying to create. Sort of like "Can't see the forest for the trees".

    It is the genuine people that suck you into a performance, not in a "Wow, i didn't know the human body could do that," way but in a "I could watch this for hours, because i feel like she/he is speaking directly to me," regardless of the tone or theme of the piece.

    When it comes, then, to patting oneself on the back, giving credit where it is due--especially when it IS due to you--whether after a hafla, or in your blog, on your tribe or in another public forum, i think you should do it, and tell everyone why. For example, putting up a youtube video and posting it to a feedback tribe or to a forum where it is within the moderator's rules and posting something to the effect of "this is where i am right now, and i am really proud that i created this choreography all by myself, or that i finally got a move down and it worked on stage, or this is my first crack at group improv on stage with full costume and makeup-i'm in purple on the left," or whatever.... This tells the people who read the forum, and whose opinions carry sway with you or whose feedback is valuable to you that you are proud of an accomplishment. It does not come off as "I should totally be on BDSS, they turned me down when i auditioned, they totally suck and have no idea what talent is because they let me slip out of their fingers. (enter youtube link here) "

    There's a huge difference between sharing pride in an accomplishment and putting on heirs. For those who carry the Humility gene, it is easy to post a genuine comment focusing on the former, and not having it come off as the latter.

    Those are the people that i admire as dancers. And i think it prudent to note that though there are "bigger and better" dancers out there, it does not necessarily mean that they share the same outlook. Sometimes the "bigger and better" ones are the ones you will never see touring the world, or fitting into a cookie cutter chorus of matching costumes, or on a DVD, or even teaching the art. Sometimes, they are the woman next to you in class, who is determined to get a smoothe undulation one of these days...and who will probably come into class one day and say "Hey! Look what i can do!!!"

    What are you proud of?

    --A
  • Re: When is it okay?

    Wed, April 16, 2008 - 5:41 AM
    I had a crippling self esteem problem when I first started dancing. I didn't perform for the first four years of my dance education. I ended up dancing to pay the bills while I was in college and that was just a matter of having to suck it up and do what I had to do.

    Humility is not a matter of maintaining a sense of low self worth. Humility, as defined by Socrates, is truly knowing your place in the world. It's recognizing your accomplishments and greatness, if you have that in you, while simultaneously maintaining a firm idea of where you are in relation to others.

    Keyword: Balance.

    ~*Spoon*~
    • Re: When is it okay?

      Wed, April 16, 2008 - 8:15 AM
      Thank you so much for the comments. Self esteem issues are hard to slump over. I think more that I listen to those who wish to bring me down more then I am willing to listen to those who are truly sincere in their compliments. Sometimes it is hard to wade through the bullshit and find out who is sincere and who is blowing smoke up my ass. And in that journey I have become jaded and doubt everyone. This is probablly the bigest thing I need to work on.

      Aradia, and everyone else, Thank you.
      • Re: When is it okay?

        Wed, April 16, 2008 - 8:28 AM
        "Sometimes it is hard to wade through the bullshit and find out who is sincere and who is blowing smoke up my ass."

        Indeed.

        Experts say our self-esteem comes from our parents/guardians. While that may be true, it's important to look from the inside out as we grow older, and learn to trust OURSELVES first and most of all. There is a delicate balance between maintaining self esteem and having a "ginormous" ego. It's good to keep yourself in check, and I think it's also good to question/consider both outside praise and criticism, because what other people have to say stems from THEIR sense of self esteem.
        • Re: When is it okay?

          Wed, April 16, 2008 - 9:46 AM
          "Humility is not a matter of maintaining a sense of low self worth. Humility, as defined by Socrates, is truly knowing your place in the world. It's recognizing your accomplishments and greatness, if you have that in you, while simultaneously maintaining a firm idea of where you are in relation to others."

          Well said Spoony, I know I am not the best dancer there is, but I feel what I dance, and I put alot into each piece. I press ahead and do so while trying to push back my thoughts of insecurity. I figure people will watch me as I improve over the years, and that is enough for me. I do give myself props for that (not saying those little devils of self doubt aren't there~ I just try to welcome them and that drains them of their power OVER me)
          • Re: When is it okay?

            Thu, April 17, 2008 - 8:22 AM
            Pyro, what you said kind of reminded me of something I sat and thought about once. "Where exactly am I on the Orientale dance skill scale?" I guessed that I was about in the top 2,000. *Chuckles* Meaning that I could probably find about 2,000 dancers who are better than I am. I don't know what the arbitrary number of dancers is in the world but wouldn't it be amusing to live in a post apocalyptical world where artists had to qualify and register their skill rating? Then we could have ID Tags that say, I'm # 3,042. Freaky.

            Ok that'senough of me being weird for one thread.

            Dark Lovins,
            ~*Shpoon*~
      • Re: When is it okay?

        Wed, April 16, 2008 - 10:59 AM
        It is absolutely okay to be humble about accomplishments and its is equally okay to crow about them.
        I think overcoming any esteem issue when dancing is to first surround yourself with people you will know will tell you exactly how you did.
        (I have several, but the biggest critic is my hersband.. she will tell me exactly what looked good and what didn't and will even demonstrate it back to me)
        These kinds of people will do worlds of wonder for you. Without harming you or tromping on your feelings.

        The rest of the populace of dancers you will learn to feel out. We all know people who aren't honest in their concrit because they are terrified of hurting feelings, just like we all know people who are brutal in concrit because they really don't care about how you feel.
        Just like we all know that there are people out there who would fall over themselves to say that their most favorite dancer did an awesome job, when she herself knows that she performed horribly, tripped on her skirts, lost her top and made those constipated faces we get from time to time.
        Wading through the BS is hard... just make sure you have good wellies and a waterproof watch in your bag.


        However, if YOU feel that you have done well and that you gave your performance every drop of blood, sweat and tears that you could possibly give it..... and feel good about it. Go ahead, pat yourself on the back. If you feel you could have done better... you don't have to say a word about it to anyone.
        Sometimes the best part for me, in complimenting another humble dancer is the blush and the thank you that you get back.
  • Re: When is it okay?

    Thu, April 17, 2008 - 8:42 AM
    To the wonderful thoughts above, I'd add a short bit from one of my favorite books, "Pronoia is the Antidote for Paranoia" by Rob Brezsny.

    ---

    You're a star--and so am I. I'm a genius--and so are you. Your brilliance doesn't diminish my charisma, and vice versa.

    Those are the new rules in the New World we're creating. That's different from the Old World, where your greatness is supposed to make me feel envious, and all of us are allegedly in competition for the rare privilege of being a well-appreciated winner.

    In the New World, you don't have to play down or apologize for your prowess, because you love it when other people shine. You exult in your own mastery without regarding it as a sign of inherent superiority. As you ripen more of your latent aptitude, you inspire others to claim more of their own idiosyncratic magnificence.
    • Re: When is it okay?

      Thu, April 17, 2008 - 9:07 AM
      Undercrypt,

      Thanks for your post. I think I'll borrow those thoughts. That's what it is all about, letting other people get on well, and knowing it means you can too.
    • Re: When is it okay?

      Fri, April 25, 2008 - 7:29 AM
      This is a great discussion and it's something I've been dealing with myself lately! I think the ability to enjoy one's own accomplishments is another aspect of the balance many people attempt to achieve.
  • The key is in WHY

    Thu, April 17, 2008 - 9:06 AM
    When you feel the pure joy over an accomplishment, of course you should give yourself cred. I think the breaking point is not when but WHY you're doing this announcement of opportunity or success. If it's you want to share your joy, then it's ok. But if you try to pose as better than the rest and show off what YOU have accomplished, making clear that you make a distinction between you and rest, then it's merely bragging and not nice at all.

    People perceive your patting yourself in different ways too, depending on their own experiences and personalities. And nationality. Here in Sweden we are encouraged to not stick out in any way, ever, and believing you're good is almost a mortal sin... Here telling you're happy about your accomplishment would most likely turn into bragging and being full of yourself for most people. But as long as YOU know it was just you sharing your happiness over something, then you know it's ok.

    I want to keep reading about all you wonderful dancers and what you're doing, and achieving. Don't stop telling us what can be accomplished. Please keep on sharing.
  • Re: When is it okay?

    Thu, April 17, 2008 - 7:05 PM
    Saz'hrah, I have a friend in you I guess! ;-p I am literally my worst critic.....it kind of goes beyond me being hard on myself though. I have some problems with seeing EVERY wrong thing I do. Whenever people tell me I did a good job of course I smile and say thank you, but then my mind just goes off on its own. Good question though and I love these answers. Helpful!

    Thanx for asking this one! :-)
    • Re: When is it okay?

      Thu, April 17, 2008 - 8:51 PM
      I always graciously take a compliment. I really wish i could get some constructive critisism. I suppose I look at myself and see what I am not, and not willingly look and see what I am. I hear often that I am different and that I can take that somewhere. I dont know if that is a backhanded compliment or not.

      Talking with someone recently has gotten me to really look and see what i do have to offer and not compare myself to others. I pride myself in not being those dancers. I am me but, honestly, sometimes I wish I was like that. I think when I learn to love MY dance as much as i love other's dancing, then I will get beyond the bitch living inside my head. lol
      • Re: When is it okay?

        Thu, April 17, 2008 - 8:54 PM
        er, i wasn't finished lol

        I know so many other beautiful artists who do the same. I throroughly enjoy their dancing and I know the audience does as well. You can feel the passion when they dance. Technique isn't great but so what?! they are dancing from the heart. I see too many dancers with obviously tight isolations from drilling but lack the understanding and passion in their dance. And the dancers that I love to watch are the ones that are watching their own videos asking themselves "wtf was i thinking getting on stage?!"

        It is sad yet comforting to know I am not the only one with these issues. I say we all get together at gothla next year, and have a self appreciation party. where we learn to feed our own souls. :D
        • Re: When is it okay?

          Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:20 PM
          When and where...sounds like a great gathering.

          We are worst on ourselves...and sometimes there are those jealous souls that help that along. I find that many of us do not allow that beauty to come out...for fear of being torn apart by the not so nice or jealous ones. I say .. find the dancers you trust and support you....a mentor or troupe mates and listen to them. There will always be a few of the 'fussy' ones in the crowd -- but my question is: were they dancing or just watching (and critiqueing)? I often see that many find it easy to critique from their seat but when they dance they get really quiet...hummmm....

          Keep dancing and enjoying yourself and creating! I would bet it is beautiful! the statement of understanding the passion says you do understand more than many.....i value technique but it must have passion too!

          Phoenix

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